Aquarium owners who go through frequent unexplained fish loss, may be inclined to give up. what causes chronic fish death, and what can be done to prevent it. This forum discussion offers possible causes for this frustrating problem. Visit the forum for other discussions about fish and aquariums.

3/17/10   From: Jujube2010  To: All
We have a 29-gallon tank that's been established for a year now. Apparently, the only fish that can survive in it are 4 Zebra Danios that we have had since the beginning.

All other fish that have been periodically introduced into the tank (I think 15 to 20 in all, including replacements) have either died within the first week or after a couple of months.

The most recent casualty was a Pleco that lived for four days (he died today). He literally looked just fine one minute (ate an algae wafer last night, had been actively moving around) and was dead the next. This is the first fish we have tried introducing since the last death about six months ago of the last Platy of 5 that we had had for about 4 months - they all died several weeks apart.

According to everything I've read, we are doing everything right. We acclimated the new fish properly by floating the bag and introducing tank water very slowly for over an hour or more before releasing the fish into the tank (careful not to add any store water to the tank). The nitrate/nitrite levels according to test strips are good (I check regularly, particularly before introducing a new fish and especially after they have died).

Some specifics:

29-gallon tank
Approximately 78-80 degrees
Well water that is softened (no chlorine)
No live plants, but some naturally occuring algae (hence the Pleco) and decorations
Quarter-tank water changes every month with vacuuming of substrate

The test strips I use indicate:

Nitrate 10-20 ppm (NEVER above that)
Nitrite 0-.25 ppm (NEVER above that)
Water hardness 0-25 ppm (very soft)
Alkalinity 180-300 ppm (a little high?)
pH 7.8 to 8.4 (also a little high?)

We just added a piece of driftwood today to hopefully help lower the pH (make the water slightly more acidic) because I read somewhere that a more neutral pH is ideal even though fish are supposed to be able to adapt to a higher pH/soft water habitat. I'm now wondering if the alkalinity is too high as well. Are we not cleaning the tank often enough in spite of the test strips indicating things are okay? Is our really soft water a problem? We could mix in some un-softened water if necessary. Is the tank too warm? We are going crazy here and any suggestions would be most welcome. My daughter and I feel just horrible with each and every death.
 
3/17/10   From: fjf888  To: Jujube2010
Its odd that your water is soft 25 ppm and your kH is high. Are you sure its not 25 dGH which would be hard water. If you are using a water softener that is commercial you are simple replacing Ca and Mg with Na (sodium). So the test will read soft but it really is not. The salinity could be a problem for the plecos and tetras.

I suspect this could be the problem. It would be better to have hard water than to use a commercial water softener. Danios are pretty hard and can withstand anything. Your tank and water may be better suited for african cichlids and livebearers.

Fred
 
3/17/10   From: Jujube2010  To: fjf888
We most definitely have a commercial softener. It never occurred to me that the water itself might be the problem because of the softener salt. I just Googled water softeners and aquariums and found exactly what you said...best not to use it at all. We'll start doing a gradual change-over to our un-softened well water (so as not to shock the poor Danios) starting this weekend. Do you think weekly 10 percent water changes is appropriate? If so, how long do you think we should keep that up before trying to add new fish? In other words, how long do you think it will take for most of the softened water to be removed?

Thanks so much!

Julia :-)
 
3/17/10   From: fjf888  To: Jujube2010
Glad to help
I would probably do a 20 to 30% water change every 2-3 days for about 2 weeks. Then back to a every week or every two week 10 to 20% would be fine. I would probably wait a month or so before adding new fish. Many fish can adjust to hard water conditions, but some are better suited and more adaptable than others. Good luck.

Fred

3/18/10   From: thatmagicguy  To: Jujube2010
I personally don't think the softner is killing your fish, but I do agree that water straight from the well should be used rather than the softner source. I have read and re-read your post and a few sentences interest me. I will list them and then comment afterwards.

"All other fish that have been periodically introduced into the tank (I think 15 to 20 in all, including replacements) have either died within the first week or after a couple of months."

Specifically,,, "have either died within the first week or after a couple of months."

"The most recent casualty was a Pleco that lived for four days (he died today)."

"...the last death about six months ago of the last Platy of 5 that we had had for about 4 months - they all died several weeks apart."

"Specifically,,,," they all died several weeks apart."

While I am not a proponent of using water from a softner for reasons already mentioned I do not think it is a lethal factor nescessarily. While it could be argued that the salts are bad for some fish I do not think there is adequate evidence to prove it kills fish, especially platies, which are heavily salted at the wholesaler. The salts do probably play mayhem with the fishes' abililty to osmoregulate, but the things used to treat water at the wholesale and retail level are worse.

You listed what you tested for and I didn't see ammonia listed which would be the primary concern in an aquarium next to nitrItes,,,,,pH is insignificant in most cases. And I have different feelings about water testing than most people, especially when it is done out of context and also when any additives are being introduced to the tank. But this isn't the thread for that tirade so I will back off.

ANYWAY,I will put it simply, the losses you are experiencing are very more likely caused by a poor source of fish, and/or something happening in the tank to cause the water quality to diminish periodically ex. overfeeding, too much tank cleaning, filter replacement, etc. etc. Usually problems such as what you are facing are more easily explained by obvious causes rather than more obscure causes, and in most cases that I have encountered it is a water quality issue mixed with our dismal supply of fish.

Bill

3/18/10   From: Jujube2010  To: thatmagicguy
I have always used the Jungle brand 6-in-1 test strips, which don't include the ability to test for ammonia. I will certainly pick up some different ones, though, to see if that might be a factor. Regarding a couple of other things you mentioned:

*If you don't mind explaining your position on water testing, I'd be interested in hearing it.

*We have gotten almost all of our fish from the local Petco. We don't have any other tropical fish source available to us. I've occasionally wondered about getting a fish through the mail, but have never done that. It somehow just seems wrong to mail live creatures. The Pleco came from Wal-mart (I know, BAD idea, but there it is).

*I'm ashamed to admit that in the past we have been guilty of under-cleaning the tank, but we've been more diligent in the last six months (25% water replacement every month with vacuuming of substrate). As I mentioned previously, the test strips I've been using have indicated non-toxic parameters...even when we had let it go a bit too long between cleanings (except for not checking the ammonia, of course).

*I don't think my daughter feeds the fish too much. She usually feeds them every other day (recommended by Petco) and only as much as they can eat in about 5 minutes.

*I've only replaced the filter twice because I read that they can be rinsed thoroughly when doing a water change/cleaning and only need to be replaced when they look discolored even after rinsing or when the charcoal has shifted too much for it to be of benefit.

Thank you for your time...we'd really like to solve this very distressing problem.

Julia :-)
 
3/18/10   From: thatmagicguy  To: Jujube2010
Hi.
I am warning you, long post ahead. Not for the faint of heart. I will address my views on testing water last.

Petco as a fish source would only reaffirm my belief that you are dealing with less than perfect stock. If you go to petco I want you to look in the tanks and tell me if you see a plastic container of rock salt in the bottom of the tanks. Many, if not most, petcos do this with the belief that the fish benefit from salt. They also use ridiculous amounts of stress coat or similar products both in the tanks and also in the bags when you purchase their fish. Both the salt and the stress type products put fish under alot of immense pressure and stress and the life expectancy from the time of purchase on all but the hardiest fish is 6-10 days. Anything over that is pure luck.

Walmart is what it is.

You said, "*I'm ashamed to admit that in the past we have been guilty of under-cleaning the tank, ,," I do not believe in undercleaning, in fact I believe the less tinkering that is done in a tank the more healthy the tank is. A fish tank is an ecosystem. It is more than water and ammonia/nitrites/and nitrates, aka, "the nitrogen cycle". It is a myriad of organisms all playing off one another, keeping the tank healthy as it were, and every time you go in and mess around in the tank you are destroying vital colonies of these things setting the tank off balance and various ailments result.

Just go back through the about forums alone and look at how many people post with sick fish, algae blooms, cloudy water, etc. etc. And look how many of these things happened after a tank cleaning.

Vacuuming to me is a sour point. And my view is a sour point to most aquarists. But the science behind my views on vacuuming hold water, no pun intended. When you vacuum a tank you are removing vital organisms from the gravel bed that break down solid waste. Also you are disturbing precious beneficial bacteria that grow along the surface of the gravel. In a heavily populated tank any substantial drop in these beneficial bacteria results in rises in ammonia and subsequent nitrites, both of which kill fish.

People who debate vacuuming with me will say that unless you do this then waste builds up in the gravel bed and things like high nitrates occur or old tank syndrome may occur or other problems. If a tank is not over stocked, is not overfed, then neither of these things will occur if the natural flora and fauna of the gravel bed are allowed to colonize. And vacuuming prevents this from happening.

I have conceded that certain fish species may require more diligent vacuuming, such as oscars, or other "tank buster" sized fish. But I also put forth, that if even these fish, if kept in sutable sized habitats and fed properly, would require little in the way of interference as long as their tanks were allowed to mature properly. Enough of my view on vacuuming. People still do it. And people still have problems in their tanks.

You went on to say, "but we've been more diligent in the last six months (25% water replacement every month with vacuuming of substrate)." I've addressed the vacuuming but let me address water changes. Water changes should not be a remedial or fix it procedure. It should be a preventative. Doing small weekly changes is much better than doing large changes infrequently. There are many things besides ammonia/nitrite/and nitrates in water in a fish tank. Fish release various toxins that are not broken down by nitrifying bacteria, they release hormones, such as fear and growth inhibiting hormones. They release pheromones into the water. Oils from fish foods and other preservatives are released into the water. It goes on and on. As these things build up fishes' bodies change to adapt to them. Much like people who live in cities with high pollution adapt to handle the smog and such.

When you do major changes to the tank after these things have been allowed to accumulate then the fish have to face the shock of their environment changing rapidly after they have slowly adapted to the build up of impurities in the tank. This stress often leads to outbreaks of things like ich. Again, people will write to forums wondering how their fish got sick, especially after a major tank cleaning.

The other danger of doing major water changes infrequently lies in ammonia poisoning. What happens is this. A tank that is allowed to go without water changes, is over stocked, has had too much food going in, has a build up of organics. The pH drops below 7. Under 7 ammonia becomes non toxic for the most part. In tanks where maintenance has been put off the ammonia often goes up, but the pH drops below 7. And the fish become accustomed to the rise in ammonia as well.

When a large water change is performed and new water is introduced to the tank at a higher than 7 pH the ammonia in the water becomes toxic again. And the ammonia in the fishes' bodies becomes toxic and death results. How many times do people post in forums of their fish going crazy and dying after a large water change?

Small frequent water changes will prevent all of the above. A more stable environment is maintained, there are less rises and falls of toxin levels, ammonia/nitrite/and nitrates seldom rise to any lethal levels in tanks where small changes occur weekly or more often. A 10-15 percent water change performed weekly will prevent most problems that aquarists face,,,of course this is dependant on having healthy fish to start with, which are seldom available in any of the big box stores like petco.

And I know, I will get email after I post this,,,,,,someone will point out that THEIR petco or petsmart or whatever has healthy fish. Every once in awhile you can find one of these stores with a good fish manager who trains his/her staff to do things right. But in the environment of the management of these companies conscientious people who do good things seldom last long as employiees. After all, a sensible aquarist employee will not shove all of the chemical product down peoples' throats and this is not in line with the box store philosophy of sell sell sell.

You also said, " I don't think my daughter feeds the fish too much. She usually feeds them every other day (recommended by Petco) and only as much as they can eat in about 5 minutes." Ideally fish should be fed several to many times a day. But you just cannot tell people to do this because if you do then they will dump horrendous amounts of food into an aquarium many times in a day and the tank will become a septic tank.

Let's examine feeding. Most brands of flake food proved a freeze dried product that expands to 4-6 times it's normal size once it is completely water logged. Take a flake out of the can and examine it. Look at the flake. Picture it swelling up to 4 times it's size. And then imagine putting enough of those flakes in the tank so the fish can eat for 5 minutes. Time it. Do that the next time you feed your fish. Put a cooking timer on. 5 minutes. THAT IS A LONG TIME.

Imagine the little fishes' stomachs. For 5 minutes they are engorging on dry flake food that will swell after it is water logged ...AFTER it gets into their stomachs. Remember how you felt the last time you left the all you can eat buffet? Or after Thanksgiving dinner? Fish do not fare any better, over feeding stresses them beyond words, they frequently fall ill or die from over feeding, and 5 minutes of feeding is wayyyyyyy beyond over feeding.

Fish in the wild do not have anyone to feed them a laboratory prepared freeze dried diet. They must swim, they must scrounge around constantly and pick up a  little crustacean here, a bit of organic matter there, they never really engorge on food. Their digestive tracts are not built that way. And I am talking about our little toy fishes, not big predators like bass and such.

Anyway, our little aquarium fish will do better with pulverized flake food, just a pinch, three or four or more times a day, pretty much what they will eat in 20-30 seconds. This would be much healthier. And an occasional treat of frozen food or live food would benefit them exponentially.

Don't change the filter pad unless it is falling apart. And if the filter is slowing down or backing up then yes, rinse it off during a water change, do this in the bucket of water that was removed from the tank, or in your case, in the well water  since you have no chlorine.

Now testing. Strips can be used if they were stored properly in a warehouse before you got them. Once you open the container and they are exposed to elevated humidity then they start to deteriorate and in my opinion their reliablility is questionable. And I have done enough comparisons with strips vs electronic testing to find them useless for me. Take that or leave it.

Get a test kit with drops if you must test. Testing is a good tool if you are having a problem in a tank. If you wake up and there are dead fish in the tank then test for ammonia. Is it elevated? If it is then you have to ask yourself if the fish died from this or did the ammonia go up AFTER the fish died. You won't know. And therein lies the beginning of the problems with testing water.

You can test your tank at 2pm in the afternoon. The ammonia is good. No nitrites. And you go to bed 8 hours later. And you get up. Fish are dead. Ammonia is high. The 2 pm test meant nothing. Unless you are testing your tank every hour of every day then really, any results are not meaningful. Many water additives have an effect on tests. Some tests give false positives after additives have been used. And the aquarist runs to the store, adds this or that to lower the false positive. And the positive doesn't go away.

Ammo lock is an example. Someone tests their water and the ammonia is .50. They add ammo lock and retest the water. Strange, the ammonia test is still positive. A popular water treatment called Prime is used by many people these days. Seachem's website acknowledges that prime can alter test results in certain type tests. The fact is, most home aquarists are not chemists. And most people panic at any elevated level of this or that.

The fact is, if a tank is not over stocked, not over fed, if weekly water changes are done, if the filter and gravel bed are allowed to mature without being traumatized then the water parameters will remain somewhat stable and if healthy fish are introduced, they will stay healthy. Water testing by box stores is done for one reason, to sell you something to fix a problem that is not really there.

I just did an experiment at a Petsmart a month ago for a friend of my daughter who is an aspiring aquarist. I have been teaching and mentoring him and I decided to show him an object lesson. We went to Petsmart. I bought two male guppies. The guppies looked terrible in the store and I knew they were going to die as most guppies do these days. We put them in his 40 gallon tank. They were dead the next afternoon as predicted. We took the fish back to the store as instructed. We took a water sample as asked, not before I tested the water with an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit. Ammonia-0. Nitrites-0 Nitrates barely positive.

We took the water to the petsmart, it was a thirty minute drive to the store. I had the water sample in a zip lock baggie. The guppies were in a separate bag. We got to the store. The person took the water and tested it. Strange. The ammonia was ridiculously high. As were the nitrites. He said he could not replace the guppies as I expected. But, he brought me an ammonia reducing product and some sort of solid resin to put in my tank to fix the problem.

I put him to task, I asked him if I could watch him repeat the test. He got very dodgy, I told him I would pay for the test this time. He was forced to do it this time in front of me, I counted the drops, he put wayyyyyyy too many drops in the ammonia test, I told him that he did it, he denied it, I showed him the back of the card that he was using to compare colors, it had the proper drop dosage on the back, he was forced to do the test properly, and guess what, the tests were negative this time. He complained that he did it the way he was shown when trained. I didn't say much, my lesson was done and we left.

Box stores are rip offs pure and simple, their mission is to sell dry goods, the fish are a tool to get you to buy them. Testing for me has a place when done in context, but for most people it is unnescessary and not accurate enough to warrant any real remedies.

pH is a measurement of the hydrogen ions in water. pH doesn't kill fish. It doesn't matter if it is 6 or 8. The pH doesn't kill your fish. If the pH changes it doesn't kill your fish. pH changes drastically in outdoor ponds throughout the day and night. And fish raised in outdoor ponds, as most tropical fish are, do not suffer for it. pH is a concern when dealing with ammonia as I pointed out above.

Mineral content on the other hand is a different matter. And in the home aquarist world this is referred to as hardness. And yes, some fish do better in low hardness (soft) water and others, like African cichlids, thrive better in higher hardness. Hardness or mineral content is important to breeders when trying to breed some species of fish. Generally speaking, and it isn't written in stone, but generally, when water is hard the pH is high, when water is soft, the pH is low. But there can be variances in this generalization. What does this mean to you? Not much, unless you are going to specialize in certain fish species that require soft acidic water to breed.

Most tropicals available to the retail trade have been raised in moderately hard water with higher pH ranges. Books will often suggest a certain pH leve for fish,,,mostly this is a useless reference since the pH ranges suggested in books apply to wild fish. Most of our toy tropicals are so far removed from wild stock and have been raised in hard water for decades of generations. If a tank is not overstocked, not over fed, if small weekly water changes are done, and not too much vacuuming or filter cleaning is done, and no chemicals are introduced to the aquarium then fish will survive, even thrive, as long as they were healthy to begin with.

Bill  
 
3/19/10   From: fjf888  To: Jujube2010
Bills advice is very sound. There's really nothing I can add to it. I just thought I might slim it down into some practical steps for you.

1. Try to get your fish from a different source if possible. Other hobbyists and small shops are generally better places to purchase fish. I understand for some people this is not possible and there are only walmarts or petcos available. If that is the case you need to be extra dilligent. Don't buy the fish that is picked on b/c you feel sorry. It is likely the weakest fish and least likely to survive. Only select fish that appear perfectly healthy, not spots, no missing fins, cloudy eyes, etc. If there are any dead fish in the tank don't buy from that tank even if they are healthy.

2. Frequent consistent water changes are very important.. Whether you change 10-20-30% a week matters less than a regular schedule. Your water in the tap is more like your tank if its changed frequently. Large infrequent water changes stress fish.

3. Don't stir things up too much. I've come around to this one. I used to be regular gravel vacuumer and i used to deep vacuum as well Feed your fish like Bill says and the gravel will never get too bad. Its very natural for mulm to accumulate under the gravel. Adding some low maintenance plants can helpl with this after a while as well.

4. Don't get too exotic of fish right now. Stay with the bread and butter species. I would specifically avoid cardinal tetras, fancy guppies, anything with the word shark in it, plecos and some of the larger predatory catfish. Do research, know the fish you want to get before you go to the store.

5. Avoid using the water softener.

Fred
 
3/19/10   From: Jujube2010  To: fjf888
 Wow. I clearly should have come to this forum months ago. I can't tell you both how much I appreciate the advice. I’m going to print these posts and have my daughter read them (she’s nearly 14 and really wants to have a successful aquarium) and then we are going to start implementing the suggestions (vacuuming the substrate was never my favorite thing anyway). A few of the things you said, Bill, were really eye-opening for me. In particular, OF COURSE the fish should be fed much smaller amounts more frequently and water changes should occur more often with less volume removed. It’s all about common sense, isn’t it? One should obviously strive to keep the miniature artificial environment as close to its natural counterpart as possible with minimal interference. And I’m going to do an internet search for fish shops. There has to be something in a 50-mile radius. Anyway, thank you both again SO MUCH. I’ll try to pop back in again in a month or two and let you know how we’ve fared.

Julia
3/25/10   From: dblissful1  To: thatmagicguy
I want to second Julia's opinion, this is good stuff that makes sense. I'm getting back into the hobby after a long absence. I've grow increasingly confused about gravel vacuuming since it has been put out as necessary in some books, but at odds with maintaining a planted tank. I'm also in the same boat as Julia because the last independent LFS closed about three years ago, leaving the big boxes as our only local fish source. Is it crazy to consider mail order fish when I finally get set up?

Thanks to you and Fred, Darcy and the others for the great info I have found here.

Dave
 
3/26/10   From: 1077  To: All
Nothing wrong in my view with ordering fish from online stores. Many folks ,(myself included) do so. These places often offer better quality fish ,for their reputations and livelihood depend on satisfied customers. This is not so with Box stores who make their money from selling the accessories needed to care for pets rather than the sale of the pets themselves.

No matter where fish come from, one should in my view research the fishes needs with respect to preferred pH range,temperature,compatibility with other fishes you have or are considering, and adult size of the fishes along with foods required.

Proper acclimation and quarantine of new fishes should also be a consideration to allow the fishes to adjust to their new home and water parameters and to help prevent possible parasites and or pathogens unknown ,from being introduced to an otherwise healthy aquarium.Many fish are lost within hours or days due to improper acclimation,and quarantine tanks which can be something as simple as a rubbermaid tub,heater,and sponge filter can often save the hobbyist's from having to treat entire tanks of fish due to possible pathogens or parasites that new fish may introduce.

I am in aggreement with Fred with respect to water produced with domestic water softeners. They remove calcium and magnesium salts that fishes need and that help buffer the water in the aquarium to a degree,and replace them with sodium salts which may or may not have harmful effects over time to fishes osmoregulatory functions. Some companies that manufacture these systems state that they are not a good source of water for aquariums. I suspect if they worked well for fishes in the long run,,no one would find the need for R/O systems.

As for gravel vaccuming, I am on board with that which has been mentioned but am keenly aware that the majority of people overfeed their fish. Is why I would not suggest that vaccuming not be performed but rather ,, I might suggest that a portion of the substrate be vaccumed every couple weeks, and a different area or portion each time . In this way ,excess organics are removed from the system without destroying a large portion of the bacterial activity, and or herbivorus plankton,infusoria, and or other beneficial organisims that benefit the sytem as well as provide food source for fishes and fry,, are not destroyed.

 Just my two cents.
 
3/28/10   From: Supavax  To: Jujube2010
Hi

I hope this tips can help you. What i usually do when either adding new fish or new water to my tank I add about 2 spoons of aquarium salt to the tank and also a few drops of water neutralizer. That seems to be helping, I also do the same when my fish look like they are having trouble breathing or not swimming normally, if I add the salt in the morning the fish is usually fine again by night time.

I also had the problem of fish dieing for no apparant reason, I started to do what I mentioned abouve and it works for me.
 
3/28/10   From: dano01  To: Supavax
One should never add salt to an aquarium unless it is to treat a specific disease such as Ick......Salt accumulates and eventually causes problems........The only way to remove salt is by diluting it through water changes.
 
4/23/10   From: SolarGoddess  To: Jujube2010
I had the same problem and for years, I didn't know what to do until my friend told me to add some H202 to the water. It turned out that the problem was two-fold. The salinity level was too high (according to her) and my fish were not getting enough oxygen. You only need the oxygen level at 5 ppm and when she tested it mine was about 1 ppm.

She added the H202 to my tank using a gang drip valve and had to leave. When she came back the next day she retested the salinity level and it was 100ppm and she said this was okay. I wasn't so sure so I kept an eye on everything and checked every hour and nobody died so I was happy.

The H202 she used was her personal stash so I had to get my own. She was very particular that I don't use the stuff in my medicine cabinet because she said it has stabilizers and other impurities to improve the shelf life. She said to use 35% food grade.

Took a little searching but I found what I needed. Now I'm happy, my daughter is happy, and the fish are really happy. lol

4/26/10   From: thatmagicguy  To: SolarGoddess
There are just so many better ways to raise the oxygen levels than to use hydrogen peroxide. And the 3 percent peroxide that most people buy often has other additives in it that might not be desireable in the home aquarium. There are stronger more pure peroxide solutions around. I have 35 percent peroxide that I use as a disinfectant around the house, it is pure with no additives.

4/30/10   From: freshwaterxador  To: Jujube2010
shes right... you test too much

4/30/10   From: freshwaterxador  To: thatmagicguy
walmart?
 
4/30/10   From: freshwaterxador  To: Supavax
also try coppersafe and hydrogenperoxide less than 1-4 tsp per 25 gall of course